Intelligence Squared

How To Lose Your Country, with Ece Temelkuran (Part Two)

November 16, 2025

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  • The urgency of the current political situation demands the use of strong language like "fascism" to spur immediate action, solidarity, and organization, rather than getting lost in academic distinctions with populism. 
  • The erosion of shame, exemplified by the "pride of the perpetrator" seen in events like Gaza, is a critical, preceding stage of moral decay that enables authoritarian systems, which Ece Temelkuran terms a form of "techno-fascism." 
  • True survival and resistance, especially in the face of political despair, stem not from hope, but from the innate human urge to create beauty—whether political, moral, or artistic—out of nothing. 

Segments

Sponsor Read: Planet Visionaries
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(00:00:00)
  • Key Takeaway: Planet Visionaries, hosted by Alex Honold, features conversations with builders of a better future, including conservationist Chris Tompkins who donated land for a Chilean national park.
  • Summary: The Planet Visionaries podcast, sponsored by Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, focuses on real solutions and practical action in reshaping the future. An upcoming episode features Chris Tompkins, former Patagonia CEO, discussing her foundation’s donation of land the size of Denmark to create a national park in Chile. The show highlights the human side of climate work, moving beyond just policy and numbers.
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(00:01:28)
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Introduction to Temelkuran Discussion
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(00:03:12)
  • Key Takeaway: This segment officially begins Part Two of the live event featuring Ece Temelkuran and Coco Khan discussing authoritarianism and resistance.
  • Summary: The program welcomes listeners back to the second part of the live event with political thinker Ece Temelkuran and podcaster Coco Khan. The discussion centers on democracies sleepwalking into authoritarianism and learning lessons of resistance globally. Listeners are advised to catch up on Part One if they missed it.
Fascism Terminology Debate
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(00:03:50)
  • Key Takeaway: Using the word “fascism” is deemed urgent and necessary in the current climate, especially in the UK where national identity is tied to defeating Nazism in WWII, making the term politically sensitive.
  • Summary: The conversation addresses the controversy in the UK over using the word ‘fascism’ versus ‘populism’ to describe current political trends. Temelkuran argues for the urgency of using strong terminology to signal immediate danger, noting that the Gaza conflict clarified the splitting of humanity into ‘disposables.’ She cautions that calling UK leaders fascist hurts a national identity built on WWII victory over fascism, potentially alienating the center establishment.
Youth Attraction to Authoritarianism
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(00:09:26)
  • Key Takeaway: Young people’s apparent indifference to dictatorship stems from a post-1980s narrative that framed politics as inherently dirty, leading to a lack of political knowledge and experience with authoritarian realities.
  • Summary: Data suggests a concerning trend where a portion of young people in the UK are accepting of dictatorship, with a gender split noted in political leanings. Temelkuran attributes this to the legacy of the 1980s, which erased leftist ideals and instilled a narrative that politics is for ‘stupid people.’ Consequently, younger generations lack the experiential context to fear words like ‘dictator’ or ‘fascism.’
Loss of Shame and Moral Decay
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(00:13:03)
  • Key Takeaway: The loss of shame, which Temelkuran identifies as a key chapter in her book, is a foundational element of the slide toward dictatorship, manifesting as pride in perpetrating pain, clearly visible in the context of Gaza.
  • Summary: Dehumanizing opponents is a methodical step in the slide to dictatorship, linked to a broader loss of shame cultivated since the 1980s. This shamelessness is most evident in Gaza, where the perpetrator displayed an unprecedented level of pride. This emerging system is described as a savage ’techno-fascism’ where certain societies are deemed unnecessary and disposable based on financial input.
Crisis as a Catalyst for Action
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(00:16:08)
  • Key Takeaway: Facing apocalyptic seriousness should not lead to depression but should instead empower individuals by revealing their own capacity and limitlessness, similar to the sense of self experienced during war.
  • Summary: Temelkuran suggests that recognizing the severity of the situation should make listeners feel like heroes capable of immense action, rather than inducing depression. She notes that people who have experienced war sometimes secretly miss it because it strips away the mundane and reveals one’s true capacity. The current moment, post-Gaza, has aligned emotional and political states globally, creating a shared page for action.
Survival Driven by Creating Beauty
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(00:23:08)
  • Key Takeaway: The fundamental human drive for survival during history’s darkest times is not hope, but the innate urge to create beauty—political, moral, or artistic—despite overwhelming circumstances.
  • Summary: Hope is deemed insufficient for true survival in dire situations; instead, history shows people persist through an innate urge to create beauty. This creation of beauty is exemplified by a story of two people in a concentration camp sharing a rotten cabbage on a stick. This act symbolizes creating beauty despite everything, which is the core mechanism for staying alive and humane.
Accountability and Political Faith
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(00:25:49)
  • Key Takeaway: The loss of political faith prevents necessary participation and accountability efforts, as people lack the core belief required to take drastic, collective action against oppressive regimes.
  • Summary: The lack of accountability is linked to the stripping away of humanity in countries like Lebanon. Temelkuran argues that while participation and accountability are mechanisms to stop the authoritarian machine, the missing element is ‘pathos’ or passion, driven by a loss of political faith. People are stopped from taking massive action (like marching on the White House or Presidential Palace) because they do not fundamentally believe in the possibility of changing the system to bring real equality and dignity.
The Pain of Complacency and Friendship
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(00:33:35)
  • Key Takeaway: The deepest pain experienced when losing a country is not the oppression itself, but the complacency shown by one’s own friends and assumed allies, underscoring the vital need for strong, politically connected friendships.
  • Summary: Complacency is present at every stage of democratic erosion, stemming from fear or a pull toward power. Temelkuran emphasizes that political connection should be rooted in friendship because, at the moral breaking point, what truly breaks a person is the betrayal or inaction of those on their side. Holding onto friends and making new ones is crucial for navigating the serious times ahead.
Sponsor Read: Progressive Insurance
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(00:18:10)
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Sponsor Read: Home Depot & Best Western
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(00:18:45)
  • Key Takeaway: The Home Depot is running Black Friday appliance sales with up to 40% off plus extra savings, while Best Western offers double points on stays for holiday travel.
  • Summary: The Home Depot offers Black Friday savings, including up to 40% off select LG appliances with free delivery on qualifying purchases. Best Western is promoting double points on every qualified stay for listeners planning fall or winter trips. These segments are commercial breaks occurring during the main discussion.
Sponsor Read: Netflix & Verizon/Verbo
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(00:19:59)
  • Key Takeaway: Netflix promotes its psychological thriller ‘The Beast in Me,’ while Verizon offers a locked-in price for Fios fiber optic internet, and Verbo promotes affordable holiday stays.
  • Summary: Netflix is advertising ‘The Beast in Me,’ starring Claire Danes and Matthew Reese, as a riveting cat-and-mouse story. Verizon promotes its 100% fiber optic Fios Home Internet with a limited-time offer locking in a price for three years. Verbo encourages booking holiday stays under $250 a night to celebrate sweater weather.