Intelligence Squared

Julian Barnes in conversation with Ian McEwan (Part One)

February 2, 2026

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  • The conversation between Julian Barnes and Ian McEwan opens by reflecting on the nearly 50-year friendship and literary careers of the two authors, prompted by the announcement that *Departure(s)* will be Barnes's final novel. 
  • Barnes's reading from *Departure(s)* introduces the concept of Involuntary Autobiographical Memories (IAMs), using a medical report about a stroke patient who experiences memories of every pie he ever tasted as a starting point for discussing memory's fallibility. 
  • The structure of *Departure(s)* is highly praised by McEwan for its postmodern device where the narrator, Julian Barnes, interacts directly with his characters (Stephen and Jean), blurring the line between author and fiction before revealing the characters are entirely imaginary. 

Segments

Introduction and Early Career
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(00:00:58)
  • Key Takeaway: Julian Barnes and Ian McEwan first met around 1974-1975 at The Pillars of Hercules pub.
  • Summary: The event marks the first time Barnes and McEwan performed on stage together, despite knowing each other for 50 years. They recall meeting in London around 1974 or 1975, often at The Pillars of Hercules pub, which served as the saloon for The New Review magazine. McEwan recalls reviewing an early work by Barnes for the New Statesman and feeling intimidated by Barnes’s suave pseudonym, Edward Pigg.
The Nature of Writing Pleasure
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(00:04:15)
  • Key Takeaway: McEwan asks Barnes to recall the moments of exquisite happiness derived from the writing process over his career.
  • Summary: McEwan prompts Barnes to identify moments of pure writing pleasure across his nearly half-century career. Barnes notes that he was a ’laggardly’ publisher, having worked as a journalist for about ten years before releasing his first novel. He felt less self-confidence initially compared to McEwan and Martin Amis, who seemed to be ‘disappearing into the distance’ with their early successes.
Memory, Forgetting, and Literary History
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(00:11:29)
  • Key Takeaway: The opening of Departure(s) speculates on how retelling memories solidifies their perceived truth, even if they diverge from the original account.
  • Summary: The discussion turns to the fallibility of memory, a theme central to Departure(s), where repeated recollection convinces one of a memory’s truth. They recount an anecdote about the late critic Terry Kilmartin, illustrating how deceased figures shrink into anecdotes. Barnes notes that at least half of the literary figures they listed from the 70s are now dead.
Reading from Departure(s)
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(00:19:27)
  • Key Takeaway: Barnes reads an excerpt detailing Involuntary Autobiographical Memories (IAMs), triggered by a medical case involving a stroke patient and apple pie.
  • Summary: Barnes reads from the start of Departure(s), focusing on IAMs, which are involuntary memories triggered by sensory input, exemplified by Proust’s Madeleine. A case study described a patient whose brain, after a stroke, would cascade memories of every pie he ever tasted in chronological order upon tasting apple pie. This leads to speculation on the terrifying implications of having a perfect, chronological record of all one’s moral failings and fantasies.
Literary Scene and Diversity
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(00:28:45)
  • Key Takeaway: The 1983 Granta ‘Best of Young British Novelists’ list, often mythologized as being exclusively white and male, was actually the most diverse list of its time.
  • Summary: McEwan questions whether life was easier without the internet and book influencers, where only major critics like those in The Listener mattered. Barnes counters the myth surrounding the 1983 Granta list, stating it included diverse writers like Salman Rushdie, Kazuo Ishiguro, and several women, making subsequent lists less diverse. They also recall the clubbable nature of publishing houses compared to the literary pages.
Structure of Departure(s)
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(00:32:04)
  • Key Takeaway: The structure of Departure(s) is lauded for its clever postmodern device where the author steps into the narrative to advise his characters.
  • Summary: McEwan admires the structure of Departure(s), noting its five parts and the blending of the author’s persona with the narrator. The novel features a remarkable section where the characters, Stephen and Jean, come to the narrator (Julian Barnes) for advice on rekindling their relationship. This device makes the final reflection on death feel genuinely personal, as the reader realizes the characters were entirely imaginary constructs.
Novel Writing Process
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(00:37:18)
  • Key Takeaway: Novelists often do not know the overall form of a book from the beginning, as the structure often emerges during the writing process.
  • Summary: Barnes suggests that writers often forget the false trails and alternative paths a novel could have taken once it is finished, leading to interviews where they speak as if the final form was always intended. He notes that the form of a novel frequently comes with the writing, rather than being predetermined by the author from the outset. The initial pages of a novel serve to give the reader confidence that the author knows what they are doing.