The Big Picture

‘Wicked: For Good’ Is No Good. But ‘Train Dreams’ Is.

November 21, 2025

Key Takeaways Copied to clipboard!

  • The hosts and guest Juliet Litman found the film *Wicked: For Good* deeply frustrating due to bizarre story choices, particularly the overemphasis on the Fiero romance and the rushed musical numbers, which undermined the core friendship narrative of the stage musical. 
  • The conversation briefly covered trailers for Charli XCX's mockumentary *The Moment* and *The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping*, noting the latter's star-studded prequel cast. 
  • The literalization of *The Wizard of Oz* elements in *Wicked: For Good*, such as Dorothy's physical presence and the explanation for the Tin Man's creation, was cited as a major narrative failure that ruined the ambiguity and metaphorical depth of the source material for some listeners. 
  • The discussion heavily criticizes *'Wicked: For Good'* for its bizarre story choices, particularly its insistence on tying up loose threads from *The Wizard of Oz* in a way that ruins the original material, exemplified by the confusing explanation of the Ruby Slippers' color change and Elphaba's faked death. 
  • The film *'Train Dreams'* is highly praised by the hosts for its sincere portrayal of grief, beautiful digital photography, and strong performances, contrasting sharply with the negative reception of *'Wicked: For Good'*. 
  • Director Clint Bentley revealed that he initially thought the Dennis Johnson novella *'Train Dreams'* was unadaptable but found a narrative shape by focusing the story around the protagonist's struggle with loss and the push-pull between work and family. 
  • Director Clint Bentley detailed the intentional and practical methods used to authentically film logging scenes in 'Train Dreams' while minimizing environmental damage, often by integrating camera placement with already scheduled tree cutting. 
  • The use of digital cinematography for 'Train Dreams' was a necessity due to the tight 29-day shooting schedule and low-light requirements, but the team worked hard with colorists to achieve a softer look that avoided harsh digital edges. 
  • The narration in 'Train Dreams,' performed by Will Patton, was deliberately chosen to convey the main character's deep internal life without breaking character, mimicking an intimate, anecdotal storytelling style found in literature. 

Segments

Trailer Reactions: Charli XCX
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(00:01:02)
  • Key Takeaway: Charli XCX’s film The Moment is a mockumentary about her recent tour, directed by Aidan Zamiri.
  • Summary: The trailer for The Moment, Charli XCX’s feature acting debut, was reviewed by the hosts and guest Juliet Litman. Litman found it charming but potentially too close to reality for a mockumentary. The discussion noted Charlie XCX’s active presence on Letterboxd, having logged 219 films in the year up to November.
Trailer Reactions: Hunger Games
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(00:10:54)
  • Key Takeaway: The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping is the sixth installment, a sequel to The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, directed by Francis Lawrence.
  • Summary: The upcoming Hunger Games prequel features an ensemble cast including Rafe Fiennes as President Snow and Kieran Culkin as Caesar Flickerman. Francis Lawrence, who directed the last five Hunger Games films, also directed The Long Walk this year. The film is scheduled for release on November 20, 2026.
Wicked: For Good Initial Thoughts
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(00:18:22)
  • Key Takeaway: Juliet Litman found Wicked: For Good frustrating because the film amplified the Fiero romance while rushing the musical numbers, undermining the core friendship narrative.
  • Summary: The hosts began discussing Wicked: For Good, the second installment of the musical adaptation directed by John M. Chu. Litman, a fan of the stage musical, criticized the film for making the Fiero relationship too central and rushing key songs like ‘As Long as You’re Mine’ and ‘For Good’. Sean Fennessey, approaching the material fresh, found the plot confusing but enjoyed the film more than the first installment due to fewer large musical set pieces.
Wicked Narrative & Lore Confusion
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(00:29:52)
  • Key Takeaway: The film’s literalization of The Wizard of Oz connections, such as Dorothy being a murderer and the explanation for the Tin Man’s creation, strained the narrative logic.
  • Summary: The discussion explored the lore, confirming that Elphaba’s power is inherent, unlike the Wizard’s, which comes from an elixir. The film’s decision to explicitly tie Fiero to the Scarecrow and Nessa Rose to the creation of the Tin Man was deemed overly literal and distracting. The movie’s structure, which separates characters into parallel lines that only converge late, contributed to the feeling of a disconnected world.
Wicked’s Post-Oz Mythology
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(00:52:44)
  • Key Takeaway: The movie ‘Wicked: For Good’ is criticized for attempting to tie up loose threads from The Wizard of Oz in a way that ruins the original narrative, such as explaining Fiero’s origin.
  • Summary: The film’s attempt to explain character origins, like why Fiero is the scarecrow, is seen as unnecessary and damaging to the established lore. One host expressed frustration that the movie insists on redefining The Wizard of Oz rather than existing as a standalone reinterpretation. The discussion also touched on the baffling change of the Ruby Slippers being silver initially, channeling power from Alphaba, before Dorothy takes them.
Wicked’s Confusing Ending
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(00:55:26)
  • Key Takeaway: The film’s ending features Elphaba faking her death via a trap door during the water scene to run off with the Scarecrow, leaving Glinda to uphold the narrative of Elphaba’s evil.
  • Summary: Elphaba fakes her death so she can escape Oz and live in solitude with the Scarecrow, accepting eternal infamy as evil. The hosts question why Glinda, having learned Elphaba’s lessons, chooses to uphold the lie by saying ‘I knew her’ instead of defending her friend’s decency.
Theme of Perspective and Bailey
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(00:58:25)
  • Key Takeaway: The movie’s theme, ‘It’s looking at things through different eyes,’ was found condescending, suggesting a single truth rather than encouraging varied understanding.
  • Summary: The line about looking at things through different eyes was deemed upsetting and condescending, implying a singular correct perspective. The casting of Jonathan Bailey as the Scarecrow was lamented due to insufficient screen time and a perceived lack of on-screen chemistry with his co-star.
Wicked Box Office and Awards
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(01:07:44)
  • Key Takeaway: The sequel ‘Wicked: For Good’ is predicted to make less money than the first film due to lower critical reception and a subdued press tour, despite strong initial pre-sales.
  • Summary: The first Wicked film earned $758 million worldwide, but the sequel is expected to see a steep decline after a potentially strong opening weekend. The press tour has been lower key, partly due to unfortunate incidents affecting Ariana Grande, diminishing the positive ‘juju’ of the first film’s promotion. Despite this, both Grande and Cynthia Erivo are still expected to receive acting nominations, with Grande having a significant chance to win.
Train Dreams Praise and Themes
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(01:25:28)
  • Key Takeaway: ‘Train Dreams’ is a deeply moving film about loss, trauma, and the human condition, beautifully shot with an amazing collection of character actors.
  • Summary: The film, based on a Dennis Johnson novella, follows a logger’s life across 85 years, focusing on the push-pull between his vocation and his family. The movie avoids explicitly naming ’trauma,’ instead focusing on the experience of loss, which resonated strongly with the hosts. It features exceptional supporting performances from actors like William H. Macy and Clifton Collins.
Train Dreams Cinematography Intent
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(01:45:42)
  • Key Takeaway: Director Clint Bentley intentionally used unique camera perspectives, such as strapping the camera to a falling log, to authentically portray the logging vocation and the character’s relationship with nature.
  • Summary: Bentley, who grew up around logging, felt the vocation and the theme of grief were deeply personal and pertinent to modern struggles despite the early 20th-century setting. The film’s cinematography included innovative shots, like the camera fixed to a log being cut down, to immerse the audience in the physical work. The final ten minutes utilize the digital photography to place the character in positions that sweep the audience up after a slower middle section.
Recreating Logging Work Authentically
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(01:45:14)
  • Key Takeaway: Authentic logging scenes in ‘Train Dreams’ were achieved by bolting cameras to trees scheduled for cutting and using custom-made wooden/fiberglass stumps for close-up axe work.
  • Summary: The film captured the vocation of logging by filming camera placements on trees already slated for removal by logging operations. For scenes requiring actors to saw into large trees, production built realistic wooden and fiberglass tree sections, extending the tops with VFX. This approach contrasted sharply with older films like ‘Sometimes a Great Notion,’ which could perform dangerous stunts without modern safety constraints.
Digital Cinematography Rationale
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(01:48:43)
  • Key Takeaway: Digital capture was essential for ‘Train Dreams’ due to the 29-day shoot and the need to utilize available light from fires and candles, which film stock could not accommodate efficiently.
  • Summary: Shooting on film was explored but deemed impossible given the rapid pace and reliance on natural or practical light sources like fires and lanterns. Digital allowed the crew to move quickly through low-light environments, and the colorists worked to soften the digital edges to achieve a desired aesthetic. A 35mm print was later created, revealing subtle detail lost in the digital exhibition format.
Narration Structure and Intent
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(01:51:46)
  • Key Takeaway: Narration in ‘Train Dreams’ was used to articulate the protagonist’s deep internal thoughts, which he could not express verbally due to his character’s nature, while also capturing the clever voice of the novella’s author, Dennis Johnson.
  • Summary: The narration, voiced by Will Patton, avoids delivering basic plot information, instead providing access to the protagonist’s complex feelings about trauma and loss. The style was intentionally crafted to feel like a late-night story told by a local acquaintance, allowing for tangents like discussing a comet. This approach prevented the film from adhering to a traditional three-act structure and maintained the literate quality of the source novella.
Casting Joel Edgerton
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(01:55:30)
  • Key Takeaway: Joel Edgerton was cast because of his rare ability to appear timeless across different eras and his capacity to convey deep emotion with minimal dialogue, fitting the reserved nature of the lead character.
  • Summary: The director found Edgerton fascinating as an actor capable of embodying depth, contrasting with one host’s previous immunity to his performances. Edgerton possesses a timeless quality, fitting seamlessly into historical settings, and excels at portraying both a rugged logger and a tender family man. His talent lies in conveying significant emotion through subtle expressions rather than constant activity.
Filmmaker Influences and Comparisons
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(01:57:12)
  • Key Takeaway: Director Bentley views comparisons to Terrence Malick as an honor, acknowledging Malick’s foundational influence on poetic filmmaking involving nature, but aims to forge his own path.
  • Summary: Terrence Malick is recognized as one of the greatest filmmakers who fundamentally changed cinema’s language, especially regarding the depiction of nature. Bentley, who lives in Texas (Malick’s home state), feels influenced but strives to create his own work. He prefers a slow, step-by-step career progression, similar to filmmakers like the Coen Brothers or Fellini, rather than making sudden large jumps.
Casting Philosophy and Supporting Roles
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(01:58:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Casting decisions prioritize finding actors whose spirit matches the character’s essence, often leading to the selection of character actors like John Deal and Paul Schneider who deliver powerful performances in limited screen time.
  • Summary: The director learned from past mistakes to focus on a character’s spirit over superficial descriptions during auditions. Having established actors like Paul Schneider and John Deal for brief but impactful roles is a filmmaker’s dream, as they deliver heartbreaking performances. The goal is to find people audiences want to watch and listen to, whether they are seasoned actors or newcomers like Nathaniel Arkand.
Independent Film Career Trajectory
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(02:01:52)
  • Key Takeaway: Filmmakers should prioritize making the art they feel drawn to, rather than reverse-engineering success, as demonstrated by Greg Kwedar’s experience with ‘Sing Sing’ despite industry advice against the project.
  • Summary: The director learned from his own experience with ‘Jockey’ and observing Greg Kwedar’s journey that sticking to one’s creative gut is vital, even when facing industry resistance. Kwedar was advised against making ‘Sing Sing’ after a successful thriller, but the eventual positive response validated his initial vision. This process requires patience, as success is not guaranteed by following conventional paths.
State of Independent Film Distribution
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(02:05:00)
  • Key Takeaway: The independent film landscape is currently strange, characterized by numerous distribution avenues (streaming) but fewer traditional distributors, forcing filmmakers to adapt like ‘alley cats.’
  • Summary: ‘Train Dreams’ benefits from a robust theatrical release, including 35mm prints, alongside its availability on Netflix, allowing family members without local theaters to see it. While there is no lack of audience desire, the industry is struggling to define distribution methods post-COVID. Independent filmmakers must remain adaptable, focusing on making good work and hoping people see it.
Last Great Films Seen
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(02:09:00)
  • Key Takeaway: Clint Bentley recently watched John Ford’s ‘How Green Was My Valley,’ finding it beautiful and emotionally resonant, and praised Paul Thomas Anderson’s ‘Inherent Vice’ (referred to as ‘One Battle’) for its freshness.
  • Summary: Bentley watched ‘How Green Was My Valley,’ noting its thematic similarities to ‘Train Dreams’ and acknowledging its historical unfairness due to beating ‘Citizen Kane’ for Best Picture. He found the John Ford film gorgeous and cried through the latter half. He also praised ‘Inherent Vice’ (PTA’s film), specifically highlighting Benicio del Toro’s character as deserving of a spin-off movie.