The Joe Rogan Experience

#2395 - Mariana van Zeller

October 17, 2025

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  • Mariana van Zeller is launching a new podcast called "The Hidden Third," focusing on the estimated 35% of the global economy comprised of black and gray markets, aiming to understand the motivations of those involved in illegal activities. 
  • Van Zeller's investigative work for National Geographic's "Trafficked with Mariana van Zeller" involves high-risk, boots-on-the-ground reporting, including filming cartel operations in Sinaloa and exposing issues like corrupt police selling confiscated guns. 
  • The conversation highlighted severe societal failures in addressing addiction, evidenced by the rise of 'trank dope' (fentanyl mixed with animal tranquilizer xylosine) and massive fraud within the multi-billion dollar US rehab industry. 
  • The conversation heavily critiques the current political and social climate for its increasing polarization, tribalism, and encouragement of hate and violence from both the political right and left, emphasizing the need for non-violence. 
  • A significant portion of the discussion focused on the complex and often heartless nature of US immigration policy, detailing personal stories of asylum seekers and criticizing the political use of immigrants as pawns. 
  • The speakers expressed deep concern over corporate and governmental corruption, specifically citing examples in the pharmaceutical industry (OxyContin/Subsys) and the revolving door between regulatory bodies like the FDA and the industries they oversee. 
  • The conversation highlights that ideological tribalism and the pursuit of audience/funding often incentivize media figures and politicians to perpetuate simplistic narratives rather than engage in nuanced, independent reporting or problem-solving. 
  • The guest, Mariana van Zeller, emphasizes the critical role of independent journalism, which she is pursuing through her new podcast, "The Hidden Third," to avoid limitations imposed by larger media corporations. 
  • The discussion reveals that sophisticated, relationship-based "pig butchering" crypto scams are a massive global industry, often involving forced labor and torture in compounds in places like Cambodia and Myanmar, demonstrating a dark side of digital communication. 
  • The conversation criticizes the perceived legality of insider trading among politicians, contrasting it with the jailing of Martha Stewart for a similar offense. 
  • Mariana van Zeller's new podcast, "The Hidden Third," features compelling interviews with individuals involved in high-stakes or hidden aspects of life, including a retired FBI agent, a former gang-affiliated skater turned actor (Fabian Alomar), and an illegal bookie (Matt Boyer) central to the Shohei Ohtani translator scandal. 
  • The discussion highlights the severe and often hidden nature of gambling addiction, noting that unlike other addictions, there is a lack of established government support systems, especially as sports betting becomes increasingly legalized. 

Segments

Podcast Sponsorships Overview
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(00:00:00)
  • Key Takeaway: ShipStation offers a centralized dashboard for e-commerce shipping automation, rate negotiation, and label printing.
  • Summary: ShipStation simplifies e-commerce fulfillment by integrating with selling channels and automating tasks. It helps users secure the best shipping rates and manage high volumes efficiently. Users can sign up for a free trial using the code JRE.
Manscaped Grooming Promotion
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(00:00:55)
  • Key Takeaway: The Manscaped Handyman Shaver features skin-safe technology and is designed to be a compact, cordless, and waterproof travel grooming tool.
  • Summary: Manscaped promotes its Handyman Shaver, emphasizing its suitability for holiday travel due to its small, cordless, and waterproof design. The product utilizes skin-safe technology to minimize nicks and cuts. Listeners can receive 15% off and free shipping with the code JRE.
Alcohol Consumption Reflection
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(00:02:19)
  • Key Takeaway: Stopping regular alcohol consumption, even moderate amounts like a few glasses of wine or whiskey weekly, resulted in an immediate feeling of being much better and less draggy the next day.
  • Summary: The speakers debate the effects of moderate drinking, noting that while one glass of wine can be relaxing, consistent consumption led to feeling ‘draggy’ the following day. The guest noted feeling significantly better immediately after quitting drinking.
Guest’s Appendectomy Recovery
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(00:03:34)
  • Key Takeaway: The guest recently underwent an emergency appendectomy exactly one week prior to the recording, leading to a temporary, self-imposed abstinence from alcohol for faster recovery.
  • Summary: The guest had an appendectomy the previous Thursday, which required her to avoid drinking alcohol to ensure a faster recovery for the podcast appearance. She noted this was the longest period she had gone without drinking.
Trafficked Show Cancellation
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(00:04:54)
  • Key Takeaway: The National Geographic show “Trafficked with Mariana van Zeller” concluded after five seasons because Disney shifted focus toward natural history and animal programming, citing the show’s high cost and risk.
  • Summary: The fifth season of ‘Trafficked’ premiered on Hulu and is the final season due to production costs and network strategy changes favoring nature content. Van Zeller expressed pride in the work accomplished over the five seasons.
The Hidden Third Podcast Launch
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(00:05:29)
  • Key Takeaway: Van Zeller’s new podcast, ‘The Hidden Third,’ explores the black and gray markets, which economists estimate constitute 35% of the global economy.
  • Summary: The podcast aims to host intimate conversations with smugglers, traffickers, and scammers to understand their motivations and the impact of these unregulated economies on society. The ‘hidden third’ includes both illegal black markets and untaxed gray market activities.
Motivations for Talking to Journalists
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(00:18:01)
  • Key Takeaway: People involved in illegal activities talk to journalists primarily due to ego (boasting about power), impunity in corrupt regions, and a fundamental desire to be understood.
  • Summary: Middle and low-level operators often seek validation, wanting to show off their specialized skills, such as a counterfeiter boasting about being the ‘best finisher’ of fake currency. The desire to be understood overrides the stigma of being labeled a ‘bad guy.’
Counterfeit Money Production Details
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(00:18:53)
  • Key Takeaway: Peruvian counterfeiters use locally sourced materials like cornmeal (‘maisena’) to replicate the texture of US bills, though the specialized paper remains the hardest component to duplicate.
  • Summary: A taxi driver in Lima, who was the ‘finisher’ for counterfeit $100 bills, detailed his process, including using cornmeal to achieve the correct feel. These fake bills are distributed in the US via commercial airlines, often exchanged for 70% of their face value in real currency.
Cartel USA Operations and El Gringo
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(00:27:08)
  • Key Takeaway: Cartel operations in the US rely heavily on commercial airlines, with one source indicating a high probability of drugs being transported on Delta flights from the West Coast, often utilizing strippers as couriers.
  • Summary: The investigation into Cartel USA involved interviewing ‘El Gringo,’ an American wholesale buyer who distributed drugs across the US. He revealed that strippers were often used as couriers because they are less suspicious and more likely to accept the risk.
Militias and Political Extremism
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(00:52:55)
  • Key Takeaway: The existence of both right-wing and left-wing militias is mutually reinforcing, with each group training and arming themselves primarily in reaction to the perceived threat posed by the other.
  • Summary: Van Zeller filmed both a right-wing border militia and a left-wing group, noting they gave identical justifications for their existence based on protecting vulnerable populations from the opposing side. She finds the existence of armed groups outside the law incredibly dangerous.
Drug Policy and Psychedelics Efficacy
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(00:44:49)
  • Key Takeaway: Ibogaine, an illegal Schedule I substance in the US, shows an 80-90% efficacy rate for treating addiction and PTSD, prompting its limited use for veterans in Texas.
  • Summary: The conversation contrasted the failure of punitive drug policies with the success of treatments like Ibogaine, which forces users to confront the root causes of their addiction through a brutal, introspective experience. The effectiveness of psychedelics for veterans is forcing a reconsideration of their legal status by conservative groups.
Militias and Political Extremism
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(00:56:03)
  • Key Takeaway: The perceived threat from right-wing militias against minorities is discussed alongside the need to acknowledge the reality of groups like Antifa, contrasting this with calls to ignore right-wing theocratic movements.
  • Summary: Minorities, including LGBTQ, Black, and Hispanic communities, are cited as being under attack by right-wing militias, necessitating readiness to defend vulnerable populations. The speakers criticize public figures like Jimmy Kimmel for denying Antifa’s existence, asserting that such denial is unhelpful. Furthermore, they note the hypocrisy of some on the right who ignore efforts to turn Texas into a theocracy by placing the Ten Commandments in schools.
The Danger of Team Mentality
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(00:57:39)
  • Key Takeaway: Blindly defending one’s political ’team’ by ignoring its flaws and focusing only on the opposition’s mistakes leads to societal fracturing.
  • Summary: Feeling obligated to defend one’s team requires ignoring the horrible actions committed by that team, which ultimately serves no benefit. This tribalistic defense causes society to erode and become more fractured. The solution proposed is embracing non-violence, similar to Martin Luther King Jr.’s approach, as an antidote to the prevalent violent rhetoric.
Celebration of Political Death
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(00:59:12)
  • Key Takeaway: The depth of political hatred is evidenced by prominent figures celebrating or condoning the assassination of political opponents like Charlie Kirk.
  • Summary: People, including famous personalities, celebrated the news of Charlie Kirk’s supposed death, suggesting a dangerous level of animosity in the current political climate. The proper counter to hateful rhetoric is stated to be love and eloquently stating the correct position, as Martin Luther King Jr. did. President Trump’s reaction at Kirk’s memorial, expressing hatred for enemies, is contrasted with King’s philosophy of loving enemies.
Immigration Policy and Enforcement
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(01:01:28)
  • Key Takeaway: Immigration enforcement actions, such as raids, are criticized as heartless and politically motivated, especially when targeting individuals attempting to follow legal asylum procedures.
  • Summary: The speakers agree that immigrants are being used as political pawns by both sides, leading to heartless enforcement actions. It is legally permissible to enter the U.S. without papers and then ask for asylum, a process currently backlogged with 11 million cases. A specific tragic case involving Estella and Nori, who were deported while their asylum process was ongoing, resulted in the mother’s death due to lack of medication access.
Minnesota Voting Law Controversy
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(01:09:12)
  • Key Takeaway: Minnesota passed a law allowing non-citizens holding driver’s licenses to register and potentially vote, though officials claim such voting is illegal and rare.
  • Summary: Minnesota Governor Tim Waltz recently passed legislation allowing illegal immigrants to obtain driver’s licenses, which subsequently allows them to register to vote by affirming eligibility. Testimony confirmed that non-citizens with these licenses can register, though the Secretary of State noted that voting by non-citizens is illegal and subject to prosecution. This situation highlights how immigrants are being used as political tools, potentially influencing congressional seats based on census counts.
Deportation Injustice and Integration
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(01:13:57)
  • Key Takeaway: Deporting long-integrated individuals, including those who have worked hard for decades, is heartless and associates the U.S. government with tyranny.
  • Summary: Deporting individuals who have been part of the community for decades, sometimes since childhood, is seen as foolish and heartless, especially when they barely remember their country of origin. Undocumented immigrants contribute significantly to the economy, paying nearly $97 billion in federal, state, and local taxes in 2022. The focus should be on rooting out criminals rather than removing hardworking people who have integrated into society.
Pharmaceutical Industry Corruption
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(01:24:25)
  • Key Takeaway: The opioid crisis was fueled by pharmaceutical companies like Purdue Pharma, which knowingly misled regulators and the public about addiction rates for massive profit.
  • Summary: The OxyContin Express involved pain clinics in Florida prescribing massive amounts of opioids, often after cursory three-minute doctor visits, feeding addiction across the country. Purdue Pharma falsely advertised that less than 1% of users would become addicted, while the Sackler family attempted to settle massive liabilities without accepting personal liability. Heroin was originally created as a ‘safe alternative’ to morphine, illustrating a recurring pattern of introducing dangerous drugs as solutions to existing addictions.
Systemic Evil in Healthcare and Media
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(01:37:26)
  • Key Takeaway: Evil manifests when financial incentives override ethical responsibility, leading to systemic corruption in pharmaceuticals and media complicity through advertising revenue.
  • Summary: Pharmaceutical executives are detached from the human cost of their actions, viewing death tolls as mere numbers on a ledger while securing massive profits. The head of the FDA who approved OxyContin allegedly did so after a mysterious weekend meeting with pharmaceutical representatives. Cable news outlets are financially dependent on pharmaceutical advertising, which compromises their ability to critically investigate drug safety and pricing issues.
The Role of Independent Journalism
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(01:44:39)
  • Key Takeaway: The decline in public trust in mainstream media necessitates the rise of independent journalists who operate without partisan constraints or corporate influence.
  • Summary: The public’s distrust of journalists is a real problem, partly because mainstream outlets like Fox News and MSNBC function as propaganda arms for political parties. Independent journalists, such as Matt Taibbi, are trusted because they prioritize truth over party lines, exposing systemic issues like media conflicts of interest. The attention economy thrives on selling hate and outrage, which independent platforms on YouTube can help counteract by providing unconstrained investigative reporting.
Terrorism and Left-Wing Extremism
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(01:48:00)
  • Key Takeaway: The decentralized nature of Antifa makes it difficult for the left to acknowledge or address, similar to how right-wing extremists are viewed.
  • Summary: Islamic terrorism and Antifa are acknowledged as existing factions, but the latter is described as more decentralized. Those on the left may ignore Antifa because they view them as the necessary ’tough guys’ for dirty work. This dynamic is compared to how right-wing militias are sometimes viewed by their own side.
Independent Journalism and Media Freedom
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(01:48:34)
  • Key Takeaway: Starting an independent podcast on YouTube allows journalists to report without being limited or dictated to by corporate entities like Disney or National Geographic.
  • Summary: The shift to an independent podcast on YouTube is motivated by the desire to conduct reporting without external limitations. Maintaining independent journalism is deemed crucial for the health and survival of democracy. Social media platforms can help discern legitimate journalists from propagandists based on their funding and singular focus.
Ideology Adherence and Groupthink
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(01:49:59)
  • Key Takeaway: People often adhere strictly to one ideology because it is a more comfortable way of living, framing themselves as the ‘good side’ fighting ’evil people,’ which can lead to dangerous rationalizations.
  • Summary: It is easier for individuals to adopt an ideology and remain loyal to a ‘party’ or group, even if it requires perpetuating lies, because it secures an audience and income. This tribalism allows people to justify harmful actions by believing they are acting against an opposing evil. This rationalization mirrors the justification used by assassins who believe they are killing ‘bad people.’
Historical Justification of Violence
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(01:51:53)
  • Key Takeaway: Historical figures like Genghis Khan rationalized mass killing by claiming divine purpose, illustrating how deeply people can rationalize evil by believing they are instruments of a higher power.
  • Summary: Assassins interviewed justified taking lives by claiming they were eliminating bad people, believing God was on their side. Genghis Khan famously claimed to be ’the punishment of God’ for the people he destroyed. This demonstrates how easily humans can rationalize extreme evil when framed within a righteous or divinely sanctioned group ideology.
Critique of Online Political Discourse
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(01:52:46)
  • Key Takeaway: The problem with tribalism is that it encourages hatred between opposing sides, leading to loud opinions online from people who lack actual on-the-ground knowledge of the issues.
  • Summary: Tribalism forces people to hate the opposing side, whether they are left or right, often manifesting in superficial displays like clothing choices. Many people express strong opinions online without ever spending time reporting or investigating the issues firsthand. This lack of direct experience fuels uninformed, polarized discourse.
Immigration Statistics and Political Incentives
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(01:53:27)
  • Key Takeaway: The low percentage of deported individuals with violent criminal histories suggests that immigration enforcement often targets non-violent offenders, which benefits politicians and corporations seeking to maintain a cheap, vulnerable workforce.
  • Summary: A statistic suggesting 70% of deported individuals are criminals is disputed; actual data shows only 7% have been charged with criminal violence, with many others having only misdemeanors or parking tickets. Politicians may intentionally fail to fix the broken immigration system because it allows them to fundraise off the issue and provides corporations with cheap, non-unionizing labor.
Social Media’s Double-Edged Sword
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(01:57:48)
  • Key Takeaway: While social media is a net positive due to increased information availability that limits government deception, it also creates pitfalls where attention spans are kidnapped, and discourse is polluted by inauthentic actors using AI.
  • Summary: The availability of more information via social media makes it harder for governments to operate secretly or scam the public effectively. However, many users become consumed by the platform, leading to lost focus and happiness. A significant portion of online discourse is now generated by non-real entities, such as foreign actors using tools like ChatGPT to create division.
The Golden Age of Scams
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(02:01:35)
  • Key Takeaway: The most devastating scams today are ‘pig butchering’ schemes, where victims are groomed into romantic or investment relationships before being coerced into losing their life savings via fake crypto platforms.
  • Summary: The speaker is currently filming a project where they say yes to every scam, noting that fraud is the number one growth industry. These scams often originate from forced labor compounds in Asia (Cambodia, Myanmar) where victims are held captive and tortured until they successfully scam Americans. The ‘pig butchering’ method involves building trust over months before convincing victims to invest heavily in fake cryptocurrency platforms.
The Psychology of Being Scammed
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(02:15:36)
  • Key Takeaway: Once a person is deeply invested in a scam, the psychological realization of being swindled is so difficult that victims will continue to pay to keep the false dream alive, a phenomenon described by Carl Sagan.
  • Summary: The difficulty for scam victims is not just the loss of money, but the acceptance that the relationship or investment opportunity was entirely fake. This cognitive dissonance makes it harder to convince a victim they have been duped, as they will justify the situation to maintain the illusion. This dynamic is often fueled by the excitement these scams provide compared to the boredom of normal life.
Societal Unity Through Crisis
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(02:23:36)
  • Key Takeaway: Humanity’s tendency toward warlike behavior means that true societal unity often requires an external, existential threat, such as the alien threat mentioned by Ronald Reagan, rather than internal motivation.
  • Summary: The intense division in the US is consuming mental resources that should be focused on larger future issues like AI or aliens. The most united moment the speaker recalls was immediately following 9/11, showing that tragedy is often required to overcome internal political divides. This reliance on external threats to unite is a sad reflection of humanity’s warlike nature.
Politician Insider Trading Critique
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(02:41:21)
  • Key Takeaway: Politicians are perceived to engage in widespread, legal insider trading, rapidly accumulating wealth far exceeding their official salaries through stock trades.
  • Summary: Politicians are accused of making millions within a few years of entering office, primarily through stock trades, despite earning only around $170,000 annually. The legality of this practice is heavily criticized. The speakers reference Martha Stewart’s jailing for insider trading as a point of comparison for perceived hypocrisy.
Mariana van Zeller Work Praise
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(02:42:21)
  • Key Takeaway: Mariana van Zeller’s work is praised for courageously providing necessary windows into aspects of life otherwise inaccessible to the public.
  • Summary: The host expresses deep appreciation for Mariana van Zeller’s courageous and necessary work. Her efforts are noted for offering audiences access to various aspects of life on the planet that they would not normally see. The conversation confirms her new podcast, “The Hidden Third,” will continue this investigative focus.
Podcast Guest Profiles
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(02:42:52)
  • Key Takeaway: The Hidden Third podcast features diverse, compelling figures, including an FBI agent who targeted pill mills and a former gang member turned actor, Fabian Alomar.
  • Summary: One guest is Jadian Alomar, a retired FBI agent who investigated Florida pill mills. Another featured guest is Fabian Alomar, a former skater who served nine years in prison for kidnapping and assault, but has since transformed his life to become an actor on ‘Mayans’ and advocate against recidivism. Fabian Alomar was also in the movie ‘Flamin’ Hot’.
Ohtani Translator Scandal Details
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(02:44:07)
  • Key Takeaway: The Shohei Ohtani scandal involved his translator and best friend, who had a massive gambling problem, betting illegally with bookie Matt Boyer.
  • Summary: Matt Boyer, an illegal bookie who built an empire, was at the center of the scandal involving Ohtani’s translator, who was betting heavily. The translator initially claimed Ohtani knew about the gambling, but later recanted, stating Ohtani was unaware. Boyer is serving prison time for being a bookie and money laundering, having handled massive illegal betting volumes.
Gambling Addiction Analysis
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(02:47:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Gambling addiction is a hidden, powerful compulsion driven by dopamine hits received from both winning and losing, often leading to financial ruin despite awareness of negative probabilities.
  • Summary: Gambling addiction is described as a ‘hidden addiction’ where working individuals can conceal their problem until it escalates. The addiction is fueled by dopamine released whether the gambler wins or loses, creating a constant chase for the high. The film ‘Uncut Gems’ is cited as the most accurate cinematic representation of this anxiety-inducing compulsion.
Legalization and Addiction Dilemma
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(02:49:17)
  • Key Takeaway: The legalization of sports betting presents a dilemma where industries profit while there is a lack of established government programs to address the resulting gambling addiction crisis.
  • Summary: The speakers note that unlike other addictions, there is no established government safety net for gambling addiction, even as sports betting becomes legal in most states. Companies like ESPN profit from the betting industry, raising questions about their responsibility to fund addiction solutions. The host suggests that if substances like alcohol are legal, most drugs should also be legalized to combat cartel control, despite the risk of initial societal chaos.
Podcast Promotion Wrap-up
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(02:51:23)
  • Key Takeaway: Mariana van Zeller’s podcast, “The Hidden Third,” releases weekly episodes on all major platforms and features new content on her YouTube channel.
  • Summary: The podcast ‘The Hidden Third’ is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and everywhere else podcasts are found. New episodes premiere weekly, with two episodes scheduled for release that week. The associated YouTube channel is youtube.com/c/marianavanzeller.