The Joe Rogan Experience

#2417 - Ben van Kerkwyk

November 25, 2025

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  • Recent subsurface scans suggest the legendary Great Lost Labyrinth of Ancient Egypt exists at Hawara and contains a massive, freestanding, metallic, Tic-Tac-shaped object deep underground. 
  • Geological evidence, particularly the water erosion patterns on the Sphinx enclosure, suggests the monument may be vastly older than the conventionally accepted dynastic Egyptian timeline, potentially dating back thousands of years before 4000 BC. 
  • The discovery of an extinct branch of the Nile (the Aramat branch) upon which all major Giza valley temples were built provides contextual support for a much wetter, older environment coinciding with the proposed ancient origins of these monuments. 
  • Footage from a 1990s expedition allegedly showing Zahi Hawass entering an unmapped tunnel beneath the Sphinx has recently surfaced online after being digitized from old VHS tapes. 
  • The Great Pyramid encodes precise geodetic data of the Earth, including its polar radius and equatorial circumference, using a ratio of 43,200:1, which aligns with modern satellite measurements. 
  • The megalithic architecture at sites like Tiwanaku and Pumapunku in South America displays a technological level vastly superior to the cultures (like the Inca) to whom they are conventionally attributed, suggesting a much older, unknown civilization. 
  • Astronomical alignments at Tiwanaku, specifically involving the solstices and corner pillars, suggest a construction date around 15,000 BC, calculated using the 41,000-year cycle of the obliquity of the ecliptic. 
  • The Inca civilization likely built their structures on top of older megalithic ruins, evidenced by the sudden shift from massive stonework to smaller local stones in successive royal constructions, suggesting a loss of prior building capability. 
  • Megalithic stonework found globally, including in Peru, Japan, and Turkey, exhibits consistent, highly precise features like curved joins, complex angles, and non-primitive tool marks (like nubs), suggesting a shared, advanced ancient culture or offshoot civilization. 
  • The discussion centers on the legendary Shamir, an object capable of cutting extremely hard materials like diamond, which was reportedly stored in lead due to its potency. 
  • The acquisition of the Shamir is linked to a bird, possibly a hoopoe as identified in the Talmud, which used the substance to build nests in rock. 
  • The Shamir's capabilities and lore are connected to discussions involving the Ark of the Covenant and the rapid construction of Solomon's Temple. 

Segments

Recap and Labyrinth Discovery
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(00:00:14)
  • Key Takeaway: The Labyrinth was described by ancient authors as grander than the pyramids, featuring thousands of rooms and massive stone slabs.
  • Summary: The discussion immediately returns to the Great Lost Labyrinth of ancient Egypt, which historical figures like Herodotus described as magnificent. Ground-penetrating radar and sonic techniques used in a 2015/2017 expedition allegedly located the structure beneath the water table at Hawara. Louis DeCordier’s findings were reportedly suppressed by Zahi Hawass, though the report was later released.
Metallic Object in Labyrinth
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(00:04:53)
  • Key Takeaway: Scans of the Labyrinth’s central atrium revealed a freestanding, 40-meter-long, Tic-Tac-shaped metallic object.
  • Summary: Multiple scanning techniques confirmed a massive underground structure at Hawara, extending 60 to 70 meters deep. Within a large central atrium connecting the levels, an unidentified metallic object, approximately 40 meters long and Tic-Tac shaped, was detected. The metal composition of this object was reportedly unidentifiable by the researcher.
Gatekeeping and Historical Narratives
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(00:08:09)
  • Key Takeaway: Establishment figures in Egyptology resist new discoveries because alternative perspectives threaten their established narratives and control over the historical record.
  • Summary: The conversation notes that discoveries like the Labyrinth could ‘knock down the house of cards’ regarding current understandings of ancient Egypt. Arab historians, like Al-Masudi, also recorded tales of tunnels beneath the Sphinx and pyramids, predating modern alternative research. The resistance from figures like Zahi Hawass is attributed to the threat new, paradigm-shifting information poses to established academic authority.
Edgar Casey and Hall of Records
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(00:09:31)
  • Key Takeaway: Psychic Edgar Casey prophesied the location of Atlantean ‘Halls of Records’ beneath the paws of the Sphinx, which the Association for Research and Enlightenment (ARE) continues to investigate.
  • Summary: Edgar Casey, known as the ‘sleeping prophet,’ described caches of information from a pre-diluvian civilization, specifically locating a Hall of Records beneath the Sphinx’s paws. The ARE, founded based on his predictions, has been secretly searching for these records since the 1970s. Recent footage allegedly shows tunnels beneath the Sphinx that may have been explored.
Human Timeline Extension
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(00:16:27)
  • Key Takeaway: The extension of the human timeline, supported by climate history and fossil evidence suggesting humans have existed for hundreds of thousands of years, provides context for advanced lost civilizations.
  • Summary: The plausibility of an ancient lost civilization is supported by adjacent scientific fields, including the extension of the human timeline beyond conventional estimates. Evidence suggests humans have existed for over 300,000 years, and historical texts mention pre-flood civilizations where people lived for hundreds of years. This prolonged timeline allows for the accumulation of knowledge necessary to build advanced structures before catastrophic events reset civilization.
Sphinx Erosion Debate
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(00:23:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Geologist Robert Schock’s finding that the erosion on the Sphinx enclosure walls is characteristic of prolonged rainfall, not wind and sand, suggests the monument is far older than the 4,500-year dynastic estimate.
  • Summary: The erosion on the Giza Plateau monuments, particularly the vertical channels in the Sphinx enclosure walls, points to thousands of years of rainfall, which contradicts the current arid climate of Egypt. Schock’s findings, which imply a date before 4000 BC when the Sahara was green, were initially mocked by mainstream Egyptologists. Furthermore, the Sphinx’s face shows less erosion than its body, despite being more exposed to wind and sand over the last few millennia.
Ancient Nile Branch and Logistics
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(00:36:45)
  • Key Takeaway: All major pyramid complex valley temples were built along the shores of the Aramat branch of the Nile, an extensive river system that dried up around 4000 BC.
  • Summary: The discovery of the Aramat branch explains why valley temples were situated where they are, as they were built on the shores of this massive, now-extinct river. This ancient river system provided the necessary water access for transporting massive stones, like the 1,000-ton statues, which seems logistically impossible under modern, low-water conditions. The logistical achievements of dynastic Egyptians in moving these stones are questioned when considering the limited water access in recent history.
Statue Craftsmanship and Usurpation
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(00:39:00)
  • Key Takeaway: Massive, single-piece granite statues, like those at Tannis, display near-perfect symmetry and finishing that challenge the known technological capabilities of dynastic Egyptians.
  • Summary: Statues weighing over a thousand tons, carved from single pieces of granite, exhibit astonishing symmetry and detail, suggesting advanced tooling capabilities. Ramses II frequently re-inscribed his cartouche onto older, superior works, leading Petrie to call him the ‘great usurper.’ The iconography of these giant statues may represent the ‘gods’ inherited by the dynastic Egyptians from a preceding, more advanced culture.
Human Origin Speculation
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(00:43:26)
  • Key Takeaway: Human physical frailties (inability to look at the sun, short lifespan) contrast sharply with more durable ancient hominids, suggesting possible genetic engineering or intervention.
  • Summary: The discussion touches on the theory that humans may have been genetically engineered, noting our unique chromosomal structure and physical limitations compared to other mammals and extinct hominids. This fragility might explain why modern humans, despite our intelligence, are the ‘meek’ who survived, possibly by out-competing or interbreeding with more durable predecessors. The concept of DNA as an unchanging ‘operating system’ for life is also raised.
Sphinx Footage Discovery
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(00:56:13)
  • Key Takeaway: Rare footage showing Zahi Hawass entering a previously unexposed tunnel beneath the Sphinx has recently been digitized and released.
  • Summary: The footage originates from a 1990s expedition involving John Anthony West and Robert Schock, who used ground-penetrating radar to find chambers beneath the Sphinx. After the documentary aired, Zahi Hawass allegedly denied them further permits, creating a public conflict with the Edgar Casey Foundation connection. Boris Saeed, an executive producer, filmed Hawass entering a blocked tunnel in the Sphinx’s rump, claiming it was being opened for the first time, but this footage subsequently disappeared until its recent digital surfacing.
Hawass’s Secret Tunnel Announcement
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(01:01:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Shortly after the filming of the unreleased tunnel footage, Zahi Hawass publicly announced the discovery of three tunnels beneath the Giza Plateau, which were never followed up on.
  • Summary: Following the filming of the unreleased tunnel footage, Zahi Hawass reportedly made an announcement in Arabic publications about discovering tunnels and chambers that would change knowledge of ancient Egyptians. He mentioned finding three tunnels, one north, one south, and one yet to be determined, but never spoke of them again. The entrance to the tunnel filmed by Saeed has since been backfilled, suggesting the findings were suppressed.
Great Pyramid Geodetic Encoding
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(01:03:57)
  • Key Takeaway: The Great Pyramid acts as a scale model of the Northern Hemisphere at a ratio of 43,200:1, encoding Earth’s polar radius and equatorial circumference.
  • Summary: The number 43,200 is significant as it represents the number of seconds in 12 hours of the day, and multiplying the pyramid’s height by this ratio yields the Earth’s polar radius. Multiplying the pyramid’s perimeter by the same ratio yields the Earth’s equatorial circumference, aligning closely with modern satellite measurements. Furthermore, the perimeter lengths around the casing stones and the underlying soccle encode the precise ratio of latitude to longitude at the equator.
Sacred Numbers and Cosmic Ratios
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(01:34:12)
  • Key Takeaway: The number 108 is a recurring sacred ratio relating the diameters and distances of the Sun and Moon, suggesting a common, ancient knowledge base.
  • Summary: The ratio of the Moon’s diameter to its distance from Earth is the same as the Sun’s diameter to its distance from Earth, and this ratio is 108. The Moon’s diameter (2160 miles) multiplied by 108 equals its distance to Earth, and the Sun’s diameter (86,400 miles) multiplied by 108 equals its distance from Earth. The number 108 also appears in temple architecture, linking cosmic measurements to terrestrial structures across different cultures.
South American Megalithic Mysteries
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(01:38:41)
  • Key Takeaway: Peruvian megalithic sites like Sacsayhuamán and Tiwanaku exhibit distinct, highly advanced stonework layers that predate the Inca, pointing to an unknown, sophisticated precursor civilization.
  • Summary: In Peru, there are three distinct architectural layers, with the oldest being monolithic, carved bedrock, followed by precise megalithic work (like Sacsayhuamán), and finally, the less sophisticated mortar-based Inca repairs. Tiwanaku, located at 12,500 feet, was likely a port on Lake Titicaca when the water level was much higher, evidenced by a tilted ancient strand line suggesting massive geological change. Researchers like Arthur Poznanski dated Tiwanaku to 15,000 BC based on geological evidence, contradicting modern carbon dating that suggests a much later date.
Tiwanaku Quarrying and Poznanski’s Findings
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(01:53:24)
  • Key Takeaway: Tiwanaku stones were extensively quarried for local construction, but Poznanski’s excavations revealed large standing stones aligned to mark the sun on the solstices.
  • Summary: The core of La Paz was built using stones from Tiwanaku, which was used as a quarry for centuries. Poznanski’s early 1900s excavations showed only the large standing stones remained. He determined that looking from the west wall to the east wall pillars aligned precisely with the sun’s rise on the solstices.
Obliquity of the Ecliptic Dating
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(01:55:05)
  • Key Takeaway: The slight misalignment of the Tiwanaku solstice markers (18 minutes off) points to a construction date around 15,000 BC based on the 41,000-year cycle of the Earth’s change in obliquity.
  • Summary: The Earth’s tilt variation, known as the obliquity of the ecliptic, operates on a 41,000-year cycle. When accounting for this shift, Poznanski dated the alignment to approximately 15,000 BC, a finding later validated by Bolivian archaeologists. This alignment also works for sunset observations on the east wall looking west.
Younger Dryas and Lake Titicaca Structures
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(01:57:52)
  • Key Takeaway: The 10,000 BC dating aligns with the Younger Dryas extinction event, and structures matching Tiwanaku’s oldest layers have been found submerged beneath Lake Titicaca, suggesting lower water levels previously.
  • Summary: The Younger Dryas period, around 10,000 BC, severely impacted South America, causing the extinction of 75% of its megafauna. Structures made of red sandstone, matching older Tiwanaku layers, were discovered underwater in Lake Titicaca, implying the lake level was significantly lower at that time.
Submerged Temple Discovery
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(01:59:04)
  • Key Takeaway: A 2000 expedition discovered a massive, submerged pre-Incan temple complex, terrace, and containing wall beneath Lake Titicaca, indicating significant, ancient hydrological changes.
  • Summary: The Atalupa 2000 expedition found a 660-foot-long temple, crop terraces, and a 2,600-foot wall submerged in Lake Titicaca, with divers reaching depths of 65 to 100 feet. The speaker speculates these structures could be tens of thousands of years old, far predating the Inca.
Erosion Data and Granite Pillars
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(02:02:17)
  • Key Takeaway: The heavy erosion observed on the granite pillars of the Kalasacai at Tiwanaku suggests an exposure time far exceeding the conventionally accepted timeline for the site.
  • Summary: The large pillars of the Kalasacai, identified as granite, show heavy erosion, which is unusual given granite’s slow erosion rate compared to limestone. The speaker suggests the erosional data needs further study, as the level of weathering implies an age of tens of thousands of years.
Inca Rebuilding vs. Original Builders
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(02:05:05)
  • Key Takeaway: The Inca were respectful builders who repaired older megalithic structures, but the sudden switch from megalithic courtyards to small cobblestone construction within a few generations of Inca rulers proves they did not build the massive stonework.
  • Summary: The Inca civilization lasted only a couple of hundred years, making it impossible for them to have executed all the massive stonework seen. The first Inca rulers built or repaired courtyards using megalithic stones, but later rulers used small local stones, suggesting they ran out of older megalithic ruins to renovate.
Ollantaytambo Quarrying Evidence
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(02:07:56)
  • Key Takeaway: Ollantaytambo features 80-90 ton granite blocks placed alongside small filler stones, and numerous massive ’tired stones’ abandoned along the 10-12 mile route from the quarry, indicating construction was abruptly halted.
  • Summary: At Ollantaytambo, massive 80-ton granite blocks form the central ‘sun temple,’ contrasting sharply with the small local stones used as filler between them. Dozens of giant granite blocks were left abandoned along the path from the quarry, suggesting construction ceased suddenly due to a cataclysm or social collapse.
Megalithic Tool Marks and Techniques
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(02:11:15)
  • Key Takeaway: Tool marks, including grid patterns cut into bedrock at sites like Ollantaytambo, and the complex, curved joins in Cusco walls, suggest advanced techniques beyond the simple tools attributed to the Inca.
  • Summary: The precision of megalithic walls, which feature curved joins and changing face angles that perfectly match, is mind-boggling. Theories like geopolymer or resonance grinding are considered more plausible than traditional lifting and rubbing methods for stones weighing up to 150 tons. The complex shapes may have been designed for earthquake resistance.
Mystery of Stone Nubs
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(02:18:54)
  • Key Takeaway: Stone nubs found on megalithic structures in Peru and Egypt are not consistent with primitive wedge-and-feather quarrying methods, suggesting they were deliberately formed or resulted from an unknown process.
  • Summary: The stone nubs, which appear on structures from Peru to the Menkaure Pyramid in Egypt, are not explained by common splitting techniques, as they would not be left behind by wedge and feather quarrying. Competing theories suggest they were lifting bosses, resonant frequency markers, or related to mass reduction, but their purpose remains a mystery.
Global Megalithic Consistency
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(02:24:09)
  • Key Takeaway: The discovery of similar megalithic stonework, including nubs and complex joins, in Japan and India suggests either a global, uniform ancient civilization or widespread offshoots sharing advanced construction knowledge.
  • Summary: Megalithic structures in Japan, particularly the Asuka megaliths, strongly resemble Peruvian stonework, leading to speculation about a global ancient civilization. The Barabar Caves in India also feature granite cut with mirror-finish precision and near-perfect symmetry, indicating a shared, high-level technological capability across continents.
Academic Resistance and Cyclical History
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(02:34:24)
  • Key Takeaway: Resistance from established academics to accept evidence that pushes back the timeline of civilization stems from clinging to established narratives, despite the growing evidence suggesting cyclical destruction events like the Younger Dryas.
  • Summary: The established timeline that civilization began with Sumerians 6,000 years ago has remained largely unchanged for a century. New generations of researchers, exposed to multidisciplinary evidence via platforms like this podcast, may embrace the context of cyclical catastrophes. Understanding past collapses is crucial for solving long-term human problems.
Shamir: The Stone-Cutting Implement
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(02:44:37)
  • Key Takeaway: The legendary Shamir, supposedly used by Solomon to build the Temple without bloodshed, was described as a substance or worm capable of disintegrating stone, iron, and diamond, stored in lead due to its power.
  • Summary: The Shamir was an ancient concept used instead of conventional tools for building Solomon’s Temple quickly. It was described as being able to cut extremely hard materials, and its power was so great it could disintegrate its lead container. A modern rock-eating worm found in the Philippines shares similar characteristics to the ancient descriptions.
Shamir’s Potency and Storage
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(02:46:15)
  • Key Takeaway: The Shamir’s power is so significant it is associated with the Ark of the Covenant and required storage in lead.
  • Summary: The Shamir is discussed in the context of powerful, potentially radioactive artifacts, drawing parallels to the Ark of the Covenant. It is noted that the object lost its potency after a certain point. The need for lead storage suggests extreme or dangerous properties associated with the item.
Shamir and Temple Construction
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(02:47:01)
  • Key Takeaway: The Shamir was essential for quickly cutting hard stones, including those as hard as diamond, needed for the rapid construction of Solomon’s Temple.
  • Summary: The urgency of building the Temple required methods beyond regular stone-cutting techniques. The Shamir was described as having the ability to cut very hard stones quickly, potentially even diamond. This capability was crucial for meeting the construction timeline.
Origin of the Shamir via Bird
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(02:47:22)
  • Key Takeaway: The Shamir was not found directly but was given to King Solomon after a bird was observed using it to build a nest in rock.
  • Summary: The source of the Shamir is attributed to a bird, identified in the Talmud as a hoopoe, which was seen using the substance to make nests in rock formations. This observation led to the acquisition of the object. Some speculation suggests a bird might vomit or excrete a substance capable of melting rock.