The Joe Rogan Experience

#2419 - John Lisle

November 27, 2025

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  • The CIA's MKULTRA program, which involved unethical mind control and drug experiments on unwitting citizens, largely escaped legal consequences for its perpetrators. 
  • Dr. John Lisle's research connects the later MKULTRA activities under Sidney Gottlieb to earlier OSS drug experiments led by Stanley Lovell, establishing a historical blueprint for mind control research. 
  • Ewan Cameron's CIA-funded Subproject 68 utilized extreme psychological techniques like 'Psychic Driving' (repeated negative audio messages) and sensory deprivation to break down patients to a 'blank slate' for personality manipulation. 
  • The existence of outlandish historical intelligence projects, like Operation Fantasia involving radioactive, glowing foxes, lowers the barrier for believing in current government conspiracies. 
  • The CIA's 'vicious cycle of secrecy' involves secrecy leading to plausible deniability, which encourages reckless behavior, leading to embarrassment, which then necessitates more secrecy. 
  • The capacity for human rationalization is nearly limitless, as demonstrated by the Seekers cult turning failed prophecy into proof of their belief, a phenomenon mirrored in how scientists rationalize anomalies within established paradigms (Kuhn's theory). 
  • Thomas Kuhn's theory of scientific revolutions suggests that scientists are often stubborn, rationalizing anomalies until a crisis forces a paradigm shift, a psychological tendency similar to that found in cult members. 
  • Real-world 'mind control' or manipulation, as discussed in the context of cults and figures like Sidney Gottlieb, is better understood through psychological models like Steven Hassan's BITE model (Behavior, Information, Thought, Emotion) rather than solely through chemical means like LSD. 
  • Human memory is highly fallible and susceptible to suggestion, as demonstrated by studies where individuals genuinely believed they experienced events (like proposing to a vending machine) that were only suggested to them under hypnosis or suggestion. 
  • A major inspiration for MKUltra experiments, predating the gay bomb research, was the concept of using chemicals to incapacitate enemy armies without lethal force, a goal championed by figures like Luther Green and Stanley Lovell. 
  • Sidney Gottlieb became interested in investigating LSD as a potential incapacitant that could achieve 'war without death' by temporarily neutralizing enemy soldiers for subsequent capture. 
  • The conversation concludes with acknowledgments of John Lisle's book, *Project Mind Control: Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA, and the Tragedy of MKULTRA*, and his other work, *The Dirty Tricks Department*, confirming the existence of an audiobook for the former. 

Segments

MKULTRA Project Adaptation
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(00:00:12)
  • Key Takeaway: David Chase secured rights to adapt John Lisle’s book, Project Mind Control, into a series focusing on Sidney Gottlieb and MKULTRA.
  • Summary: David Chase is adapting Dr. Lisle’s book, Project Mind Control: Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA, and the Tragedy of MKULTRA, into a series. The program is described as a tragedy due to its lack of oversight and the fact that perpetrators faced few consequences for experimenting on American citizens. Victims who sued the CIA received minimal compensation.
Origin of Intelligence Community Interest
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(00:02:01)
  • Key Takeaway: Dr. Lisle’s initial research focused on State Department science attachés, leading him to Sidney Gottlieb and the OSS’s Stanley Lovell.
  • Summary: Lisle’s PhD dissertation focused on scientists connected to the intelligence community via State Department science attachés. This research introduced him to Stanley Lovell, head of the OSS’s Research and Development Branch, whose work on truth drugs served as a blueprint for Gottlieb’s later MKULTRA efforts. Gottlieb admitted in depositions that he used Lovell’s old OSS files when starting the mind control program.
Early Drug Experiments and Irony
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(00:04:47)
  • Key Takeaway: The OSS experimented with THC acetate as a truth drug during WWII, ironically overseen by Harry Anslinger, who simultaneously campaigned against marijuana.
  • Summary: Prior to MKULTRA, the OSS tested truth drugs like THC acetate, administered via cigarettes, on subjects to lower inhibitions. The irony is that Harry Anslinger, known for his anti-marijuana crusade, oversaw these WWII drug experiments. While the drug did not guarantee truth, it increased word count by about 40%.
Henry Murray and Hitler Profile
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(00:06:07)
  • Key Takeaway: Psychologist Henry Murray, who profiled Hitler for the OSS, had connections to intelligence work involving psychological exploitation.
  • Summary: Henry Murray, who conducted psychological experiments at Harvard involving Ted Kaczynski, profiled Hitler for the OSS, suggesting a feminine personality tendency. OSS scientist Stanley Lovell planned to exploit this by injecting female sex hormones into Hitler’s beets via a gardener. Murray also developed personality tests for OSS and CIA recruits.
Castro Assassination/Discredit Plots
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(00:12:24)
  • Key Takeaway: CIA plots against Fidel Castro included dosing him with LSD via cigars and using thallium salts to make his beard fall out.
  • Summary: MKULTRA motivations included discrediting figures like Fidel Castro by dosing him with LSD before speeches or using thallium salts to cause his beard to fall out, thereby undermining his masculine allure. Another plot involved photoshopping images suggesting Castro indulged in luxury while his people starved. Assassination attempts included rigging an explosive shell for him to find while scuba diving.
MKULTRA Subprojects and Drug Testing
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(00:17:50)
  • Key Takeaway: MKULTRA comprised 149 sub-projects, including testing heroin on prisoners at the Lexington Narcotic Farm as a potential interrogation leverage tool.
  • Summary: MKULTRA was an umbrella term covering 149 sub-projects often farmed out to independent researchers. Harris Isbell at the Lexington Narcotic Farm tested numerous drugs, including heroin, on prisoners to see if addiction withdrawal could be used for leverage during interrogation. As perverse incentives, participating prisoners could choose between a positive parole letter or a dose of heroin.
Heroin’s Ironic Origin
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(00:20:52)
  • Key Takeaway: Heroin was originally developed by Bayer as a non-addictive substitute intended to treat morphine addiction.
  • Summary: Heroin was initially marketed in the late 19th century by the German company Bayer as a cough suppressant and a superior, non-addictive alternative to morphine. This historical context highlights the recurring pattern of new drugs being introduced with false safety claims.
Truth Drug Effectiveness Illusion
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(00:24:16)
  • Key Takeaway: The mere threat of administering a ’truth drug’ or convincing someone they were hypnotized was often more effective than the actual substances or techniques.
  • Summary: The psychological effect of believing one had taken a truth serum lowered a subject’s defenses, providing them permission to talk without personal blame. Similarly, convincing a subject they were hypnotized, even if they were not, reduced resistance to interrogation. This was achieved in part through techniques like Martin Orne’s ‘hypnotic situation’ using hidden physical cues.
Ewan Cameron’s Psychic Driving
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(00:30:41)
  • Key Takeaway: Psychiatrist Ewan Cameron, funded by MKULTRA, developed ‘Psychic Driving’ to break down patients using weeks of continuous negative audio playback.
  • Summary: Subproject 68, led by Ewan Cameron, focused on psychological manipulation rather than drugs, aiming to reduce patients to a ‘blank slate’ through induced stress. Psychic Driving involved making patients listen to negative messages for hours daily until they broke down, after which positive messages could theoretically rebuild them. Cameron also used chemical comas and sensory deprivation chambers for extended periods.
Mary Morrow’s Torture and Lawsuit
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(00:37:09)
  • Key Takeaway: Mary Morrow, a doctor training under Cameron, became a victim of his shock treatments after signing no consent form, leading to a lawsuit against the CIA.
  • Summary: Mary Morrow, who had administered electric shock treatments, suffered a psychotic break and was subjected to further extreme treatments, including continuous shocking, after returning as a patient. The subsequent lawsuit against the CIA, based on depositions from Gottlieb and others, was settled out of court for $750,000 split among victims.
George White’s Malicious Dosing
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(00:45:20)
  • Key Takeaway: George White, who ran Operation Midnight Climax, derived personal pleasure from surreptitiously dosing acquaintances, including one woman whose life was ruined.
  • Summary: George White, who previously worked in the OSS, was characterized as a psychopath who dosed his own friends with LSD for amusement. He spiked the punch bowl at a U.S. Marshal Christmas party, leading to Wayne Ritchie’s psychotic break and subsequent institutionalization. White’s diary confirmed his presence at the party where Ritchie was dosed.
Gottlieb’s Justification and Diffusion of Responsibility
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(00:50:04)
  • Key Takeaway: Sidney Gottlieb justified his role by believing MKULTRA served a patriotic defense against the Soviets, diffusing responsibility by funding external experts.
  • Summary: Gottlieb viewed his work as necessary for national defense, unlike George White’s malicious intent, but still avoided direct responsibility for patient harm. He funded sub-projects through cut-out organizations like the Getchiker Fund, meaning many researchers did not even know the CIA was their true patron. This structure created a diffusion of responsibility where Gottlieb claimed the conducting experts were responsible for patient safety.
Worldview Shift from Research
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(00:52:19)
  • Key Takeaway: Researching historical intelligence projects like MKUltra shifts a general skeptic’s worldview toward accepting the possibility of real, prevalent conspiracies.
  • Summary: The guest, John Lisle, noted that his first book was more formative in shaping his worldview than his later work on MKUltra. His initial skepticism was lowered by discovering outlandish projects like Operation Fantasia within the intelligence community. This research convinced him that real conspiracies are far more prevalent than commonly assumed.
Operation Fantasia WWII Plot
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(00:53:13)
  • Key Takeaway: The OSS planned Operation Fantasia, an attempt to demoralize the Japanese by dropping glowing, radioactive foxes over Japan to mimic mystical portents of doom (kitsuni).
  • Summary: Operation Fantasia was conceived by Ed Salinger to exploit Japanese religious beliefs regarding the kitsuni (fox figures). Initial ideas involved using fox whistles and odors, but the plan escalated to painting captured foxes with glowing radium paint and dropping them from the air. Experiments confirmed foxes could swim after being painted, but the paint washed off in the water, leading to a final, unlaunched plan involving a taxidermied, glowing fox skull hybrid.
MKUltra Document Discovery
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(01:00:01)
  • Key Takeaway: Thousands of MKUltra documents survived destruction because they were accidentally stored outside the CIA archives targeted for incineration by Sidney Gottlieb and Richard Helms.
  • Summary: Following the Rockefeller and Church Committees, John Marks filed a FOIA request, leading to the discovery of boxes Gottlieb had failed to destroy. These boxes had been sent to the CIA records center before Gottlieb and Helms retired and purged their files. While the broad outlines of MKUltra were known beforehand (e.g., the Frank Olson incident), these surviving documents provided a detailed view of the program.
George White’s Letter to Gottlieb
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(01:02:27)
  • Key Takeaway: Operation Midnight Climax operative George White expressed extreme enthusiasm for his illicit activities in a letter to Sidney Gottlieb, stating he could ’lie, cheat, steal, rape, and pillage with a sanction and blessing of the all-highest.'
  • Summary: George White, who ran Operation Midnight Climax, wrote a letter thanking Gottlieb for supporting his work. In depositions, Gottlieb initially dismissed the letter, but it was revealed White wrote he ’toiled in the vineyards wholeheartedly because it was fun, fun, fun.’ This highlights the mindset of individuals involved in unchecked, secret operations.
Oversight Failure and Vicious Cycle
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(01:05:33)
  • Key Takeaway: The primary lesson from MKUltra is the critical problem of oversight, where secrecy enables plausible deniability, leading to reckless behavior that is eventually covered up by more secrecy.
  • Summary: The government’s role shifted from protector to infringer of civil liberties following events like Watergate and MKUltra, emphasizing the need for checks and balances. The vicious cycle involves secrecy leading to plausible deniability, which causes reckless behavior, resulting in embarrassment, which then demands increased secrecy. Furthermore, Congress often avoids oversight by refusing to be informed of executive branch activities.
Electoral System Flaws
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(01:08:19)
  • Key Takeaway: The current electoral system incentivizes ideological extremism in primaries, leading to a low-quality selection of representatives who are often more interested in fundraising than solving issues.
  • Summary: The low approval rating for Congress contrasts sharply with high re-election rates because the primary election, not the general, determines who serves. This structure favors highly ideological candidates who appeal to the most extreme segment of the base. Representatives are incentivized to maintain divisive issues for fundraising rather than seeking resolutions.
Non-Lawyer Judges and CIA Charter
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(01:14:15)
  • Key Takeaway: The lack of mandatory legal qualifications for some judges and the CIA operating domestically against its charter demonstrate systemic failures in competency and adherence to foundational rules.
  • Summary: It was revealed that in some lower-level courts, judges do not need to be lawyers, which is considered insane given the complexity of law. Furthermore, the CIA’s involvement in domestic operations like MKUltra violates its charter, which is supposed to restrict activities to foreign intelligence.
CIA Corruption and Barry Seal Story
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(01:18:19)
  • Key Takeaway: CIA operatives are incentivized by the potential for massive, secret financial gain through corruption, exemplified by the Barry Seal drug smuggling operation in Mena, Arkansas.
  • Summary: The ability to funnel money into anonymous overseas accounts fuels corruption within secretive agencies, as operatives dream of retiring wealthy. The Barry Seal story involved him flying cocaine for the CIA, dropping it in Mena, Arkansas, with the operation known to the Clintons while Seal was governor. Seal was murdered en route to testify, allegedly with George Bush’s phone number in his pocket.
Internal Oversight Failure
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(01:23:43)
  • Key Takeaway: Internal CIA oversight failed because officials like the Inspector General prioritized protecting their careers over reporting illegal activities like MKUltra, which Sidney Gottlieb later admitted destroying out of embarrassment.
  • Summary: Lyman Kirkpatrick, the Inspector General during the 1950s, admitted he feared losing his job if he reported on MKUltra, despite knowing it was illegal and unethical. Sidney Gottlieb eventually confessed to destroying the files because he was embarrassed by the results and the cost of the program. This highlights that internal checks are often insufficient without external accountability.
Pendulum of Liberty and Security
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(01:31:05)
  • Key Takeaway: The constant tension between security and liberty is necessary; the exposure of abuses by the press and Congress, though undesirable in itself, is a sign the system is functioning correctly.
  • Summary: If the pendulum swings too far toward security, liberty is lost; if it swings too far toward liberty, security vanishes. The exposure of abuses, often first by independent journalists, is a positive indicator that the system’s auxiliary precautions are working. The day the press and Congress report no abuses is the day liberties are lost.
Cognitive Dissonance in Belief Systems
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(01:40:30)
  • Key Takeaway: Humans possess a near-limitless capacity to rationalize any evidence to support a false premise, a mechanism observed in cults and in the progression of scientific paradigms.
  • Summary: Leon Festinger’s study of the Seekers cult showed that when their prophecy failed, members rationalized the event as God showing mercy due to their strong belief, turning contradictory evidence into proof. This cognitive dissonance is also present in science, where scientists often ignore or rationalize anomalies rather than immediately abandoning an established paradigm until too many contradictions accumulate.
Kuhn’s Paradigm Shifts
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(01:46:41)
  • Key Takeaway: Scientific progress relies ironically on scientists being stubborn and rationalizing anomalies to maintain their current paradigm until a crisis forces a revolution.
  • Summary: Science progresses through puzzle-solving within an accepted paradigm, where scientists rationalize away anomalies until a crisis allows an alternative paradigm to account for all previous data plus the anomalies. This stubborn adherence to the current paradigm, similar to cult behavior, is necessary to enable the uncovering of enough anomalies that eventually trigger a scientific revolution. Thomas Kuhn essentially described cognitive dissonance in scientists before Leon Festinger formalized the term for cult members.
Psychology of Manipulation
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(01:49:36)
  • Key Takeaway: Exploiting human psychology, rather than just chemical means, is the core method used by figures like Sidney Gottlieb and cult leaders to influence behavior.
  • Summary: Understanding human psychological tendencies allows individuals to exploit them for perceived national security interests or cult control. Steven Hassan’s BITE model (Behavior, Information, Thought, Emotion) provides a framework for understanding how actual manipulation occurs in cults. This psychological manipulation, involving controlling actions, restricting information, reinforcing thoughts, and instilling specific emotions, is considered more effective than purely chemical mind control methods like those associated with MKUltra.
Cult Leader Exploitation
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(01:51:41)
  • Key Takeaway: Charismatic cult leaders can induce profound, genuine psychedelic-like experiences in followers through suggestion and ritual, even when the leader is simultaneously abusive.
  • Summary: The leader of the Bodhi Tree cult, Jaime Gomez (Michelle/Andreas), a gay porn star and hypnotist, exploited followers by making them pay for sex under the guise of therapy. He created a highly anticipated ceremony called ’the knowing,’ where he would touch followers, inducing profound psychedelic experiences through suggestion and placebo effect. Victims, even after leaving the cult and recognizing the abuse, often recalled the moment of ’the knowing’ as the most profound experience of their lives.
History’s Rhyming Patterns
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(01:57:16)
  • Key Takeaway: Historical events often rhyme because they stem from the same underlying, unchanging human psychology operating under different circumstances.
  • Summary: The consistent patterns observed across different cult documentaries—starting with community and descending into one person taking money or power—reflect the same basic human psychology. This explains why history repeats or rhymes, as fundamental human tendencies drive similar actions across different eras and contexts. The sensational nature of stories, like witch-hunting manuals being early popular printed books, shows an enduring attraction to sensational narratives.
Hypnosis and False Memories
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(01:57:37)
  • Key Takeaway: Hypnotic regression is a highly suggestive technique capable of implanting false memories, linking the Satanic Panic to certain MKUltra conspiracy claims.
  • Summary: The Satanic Panic involved many recovered memories through hypnotism concerning ritualistic abuse, and the president of the International Society for the Study of Dissociation was successfully sued for falsely convincing a patient of cannibalism and infanticide. The same suggestive techniques used in the Satanic Panic, where leading questions can create false memories, are allegedly used by some MKUltra conspiracy theorists who claim to have recovered memories through hypnosis. This technique is similar to how John Mack’s work on alien abduction relied heavily on hypnotic regression, where similar stories emerged based on leading questions.
Memory Fallibility Studies
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(02:04:09)
  • Key Takeaway: Human memory is so fallible that individuals can genuinely believe they performed actions they were only suggested to envision, highlighting the power of suggestion.
  • Summary: A study following the Challenger explosion showed that four years later, the majority of students recalled incorrect details about where they were when they heard the news, despite having documented their memories immediately after the event. In another study, students told only to envision proposing to a vending machine later believed they had actually performed the proposal. This demonstrates that memory is often a reconstruction based on recounting, not a precise recording, making it highly vulnerable to suggestion.
Censorship Through Noise
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(02:26:26)
  • Key Takeaway: Disinformation campaigns utilize ‘censorship through noise’ by sandwiching verifiable truths between sensational lies to make the ultimate falsehood seem credible.
  • Summary: Fake conspiracies can delegitimize true stories, while true stories can legitimize fake ones, a tactic employed by entities like the KGB via propaganda newspapers like ‘The Patriot’ in India. This newspaper published true facts about CIA drug dosing and germ spraying experiments alongside the false claim that AIDS was created in a government lab, making the lie more potent by association. Flooding the information zone with noise prevents people from trusting any source, obscuring what is actually true.
Modern Information Overload
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(02:32:00)
  • Key Takeaway: Constant, global access to the worst news of the day via pocket devices creates an unprecedented psychological burden leading to heightened anxiety and existential crises in modern society.
  • Summary: The continuous bombardment of negative global events, which was impossible in the pre-internet era focused on local communities, is a novel social experiment impacting mental health. This constant influx of existential threats contributes to heightened anxiety and fear in younger generations who are inundated with crises like climate change or genocide. While the internet is better than government control of the narrative, individuals must actively seek psychological shelter to avoid being overwhelmed by this constant barrage of negative information.
OSS Wartime Gadgetry
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(02:35:43)
  • Key Takeaway: The OSS seriously pursued the ‘Bat Bomb’ project during WWII, intending to use bats carrying delayed-fuse napalm to set fire to Japanese cities.
  • Summary: Inspired by Carlsbad Caverns, the Bat Bomb project aimed to create targeted incendiaries by strapping tiny napalm devices, developed by Louis Pfizer, onto bats. The project was taken seriously after Eleanor Roosevelt vouched for the inventor, leading to tests where bats were dropped over the desert, though they died from being cooled too much. A live test resulted in a bat escaping and burning down a control tower, proving the concept worked, but the weapon was never deployed due to the success of the Manhattan Project.
Incapacitating Chemical Warfare Concept
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(02:40:15)
  • Key Takeaway: The initial inspiration for MKUltra involved developing chemical agents that could mimic nerve agents to incapacitate enemy soldiers without causing death.
  • Summary: Sidney Gottlieb attended conferences where Luther Green, responsible for nerve agent development, discussed incapacitating agents. Green sought a substance that could be dropped over enemy territory to temporarily incapacitate soldiers, allowing Marines to conquer the area without fatalities. This concept of ‘war without death’ interested Stanley Lovell.
LSD as Ethical Incapacitant
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(02:41:18)
  • Key Takeaway: LSD was investigated by Sidney Gottlieb as a potentially more ethical chemical weapon to eliminate an enemy army temporarily rather than killing them.
  • Summary: The possibility of using LSD as an incapacitant was explored as a means to achieve warfare objectives without direct killing. This approach was framed as a more ethical alternative to traditional lethal warfare methods. The discussion confirms this motivation behind Gottlieb’s interest in the substance.
Book Wrap-up and Promotion
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(02:41:50)
  • Key Takeaway: John Lisle’s book, Project Mind Control: Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA, and the Tragedy of MKULTRA, has an audiobook narrated by the same professional who narrated his previous work, The Dirty Tricks Department.
  • Summary: The host praised Lisle’s book and mentioned anticipation for a David Chase adaptation. Lisle confirmed the existence of an audiobook for Project Mind Control, read by the consistent narrator used for both his books. The conversation concluded with final thanks and farewells.
Sponsor Read: Rinse
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(02:42:54)
  • Key Takeaway: Rinse is a laundry service that picks up, expertly cleans, folds, and hand-delivers laundry to free up customer time for personal pursuits.
  • Summary: Rinse handles the entire laundry process, from collection to delivery of cleaned and folded clothes. The service aims to reclaim time otherwise spent on sorting, folding, and waiting for laundry. The advertisement humorously suggests using this reclaimed time for activities like ’tea time you.'