Science Friday

Why The Bassist From Phish Is Funding Research Into ‘Flow State’

November 12, 2025

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  • Mike Gordon, bassist for Phish, is funding neuroscience research to scientifically understand the 'flow state' musicians experience during improvised jams, which he describes as transcendent and akin to self-actualization. 
  • The band Phish members describe their peak musical experiences using internal language like "hooking up" rather than the formal term "flow state," as the experience is deeply personal and difficult to capture with words. 
  • Neuroscientist Greg Appelbaum's research approach to detecting flow state relies on a three-pronged method: real-time self-reporting (from Mike Gordon), audience feedback, and analysis by a sound engineer to pinpoint specific musical moments, which are then correlated with physiological biosignatures like increased alpha brain waves. 

Segments

Introduction to Flow State Research
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(00:01:26)
  • Key Takeaway: Phish bassist Mike Gordon is funding scientific research to understand the ‘flow state’ experienced during their long, improvised live shows.
  • Summary: The episode introduces the concept of ‘flow’ as experienced by Phish during their 8-hour live performances, where the band locks into improvised jams. This transcendent experience is so valued by the musicians that Mike Gordon is funding scientific research to better understand it. The host, Flora Lichtman, introduces Gordon and his research collaborator, neuroscientist Dr. Greg Appelbaum.
Band’s Internal Language for Flow
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(00:02:45)
  • Key Takeaway: The band avoids using the scientific term ‘flow state,’ preferring internal descriptors like ‘hooking up’ because the experience is intangible and highly personal.
  • Summary: Mike Gordon explains that the band does not use the term ‘flow state,’ instead using phrases like ‘hooking up’ to describe moments of deep musical communication and synchronization. He notes that the experience can feel like a religious experience or self-actualization, but using specific words might minimize the feeling for each individual. For Gordon, a sign of being ‘in it’ is forgetting to swallow for several minutes during a jam.
Musical Changes During Flow
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(00:05:27)
  • Key Takeaway: Musical improvisation during flow involves intentional chord progressions and note changes aimed at transporting consciousness, exemplified by the song ‘Bathtub Gin.’
  • Summary: The music changes significantly when the band is ‘hooked up,’ with performances varying widely from night to night, ranging from jazz to religious experiences. Gordon uses the song ‘Bathtub Gin’ to illustrate how the band moves through chord changes, such as lowering the seventh to make a chord bluesy, with the goal of entering a ‘dream state’ rather than just playing patterns for their own sake. The peak of this state often results in high-energy, unrestrained playing.
Detecting Flow State Biosignatures
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(00:08:23)
  • Key Takeaway: Flow state detection requires defining the behavior first, using a three-pronged approach to correlate real-time musician input, audience perception, and engineering cues with subsequent brain activity measurements.
  • Summary: Dr. Appelbaum confirms that biosignatures of flow can be detected, but the challenge is reliable measurement. The research defines flow behavior by combining real-time input from Mike Gordon (via a pedal), audience feedback, and the producer’s identification of amazing musical articulation. Once the behavior is defined, researchers can observe brain states that differ during flow versus non-flow periods.
Brain Activity During Flow
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(00:10:39)
  • Key Takeaway: Flow state is associated with reduced activity in the frontal cortex (executive functioning) and increased alpha wave activity, which signals a shift toward a relaxed, default mode network state.
  • Summary: Flow is characterized by hypofrontality—a reduction in activity in the frontal cortex responsible for executive functioning—and increased activity in sensory systems. Mike Gordon exhibits robust brain activity, specifically large alpha waves (around 10 hertz), which are linked to the default mode network becoming more active while active cognition is suppressed. This state is similar to what is observed in other high-performance activities like surgery.
Goal: Biofeedback Device Development
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(00:18:12)
  • Key Takeaway: Gordon’s motivation is to create a biofeedback device, tentatively called Zenbox, that translates measured brain activity into usable musical or lighting effects to help others achieve or prolong flow.
  • Summary: Gordon initiated the research to develop a device, the ‘Zenbox,’ that uses biofeedback to help musicians enter or sustain a flow state. The ultimate goal is to create an ‘autopilot’ system where brainwaves (like increased alpha activity) can be translated into sound or lighting effects, allowing the ‘muse to play the music rather than the musician.’ Gordon views this experience as a fundamental, self-actualizing aspect of being human.