Stuff You Should Know

Selects: How Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work

November 8, 2025

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  • Conversion therapy, also known as reparative therapy or ex-gay therapy, is based on the scientifically unsupported theory that heterosexuality is the innate state and homosexuality can be 'cured' through psychological or religious intervention. 
  • The practice has deep historical roots dating back to the 19th century with early psychologists, but gained significant traction in the US during the 1960s and was later adopted as a major plank in the culture war platform of the fundamentalist Christian right. 
  • Despite its promotion by influential figures and organizations like Exodus International, high-profile failures and subsequent admissions by leaders within the movement confirm that conversion therapy does not work and is associated with critical health risks, including depression, shame, and increased suicidality. 
  • Alan Chambers, who replaced John Polk as the leader of Exodus International, eventually came out as gay, declared conversion therapy ineffective, apologized to the LGBTQ community, and shut down the organization. 
  • Laws banning conversion therapy, particularly for minors, often target licensed medical practitioners and counselors, allowing religious figures or unlicensed therapists to potentially continue the practice. 
  • Legal challenges against conversion therapy bans often center on free speech, but courts have generally upheld these laws by distinguishing between the right to express beliefs and the right to practice harmful, unlicensed therapy. 

Segments

Introduction and Episode Context
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(00:01:48)
  • Key Takeaway: The hosts explicitly state that conversion therapy, the subject of this episode of Stuff You Should Know, does not work.
  • Summary: The episode, titled ‘How Conversion Therapy Doesn’t Work’ from November 2019, addresses the practice of conversion therapy, which attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation, typically targeting LGBTQ individuals. The hosts immediately assert the practice’s ineffectiveness and express disdain for the topic.
Defining Conversion Therapy
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(00:05:10)
  • Key Takeaway: Conversion therapy is defined as an alleged psychological theory asserting that heterosexuality is innate and homosexuality results from environmental factors or trauma, making it reversible or ‘curable.’
  • Summary: The practice is also referred to as reparative therapy (a trademarked term) or ex-gay therapy. Its core premise is that environmental conditions or childhood traumas steer people away from their natural heterosexual orientation, allowing them to be purposefully steered back. This concept is highly popular among the fundamentalist Christian right and was even included in the 2016 Republican Party platform.
Historical Origins of Conversion Therapy
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(00:09:13)
  • Key Takeaway: The earliest documented attempt at conversion therapy involved hypnosis sessions conducted by a German practitioner in 1899, predating its modern religious adoption.
  • Summary: Early attempts at conversion were rooted in psychology, including practices like electroconvulsive therapy and even testicular transplantation in the 1920s, based on the flawed endocrinological theory that testicles were the root of the problem. The underlying theme across history is the belief that something is fundamentally wrong with being gay, leading individuals to seek help to become straight.
APA Declassification and Shift
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(00:15:19)
  • Key Takeaway: The American Psychological Association (APA) officially removed homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973, leading psychology to largely abandon research into ‘curing’ it.
  • Summary: The APA’s 1973 decision established that homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexual orientation, not a deviation, meaning it cannot be changed any more than heterosexuality can. Following this, the practice was largely abandoned by mainstream psychology, but it was subsequently picked up and revitalized by the Christian right starting in the 1980s.
Niccolosi’s Reparative Therapy Model
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(00:20:33)
  • Key Takeaway: Joseph Niccolosi Sr.’s trademarked reparative therapy model is based on the idea that same-sex attraction (SSA) stems from environmental factors like loneliness, peer acceptance issues, or sexual molestation by a same-sex individual.
  • Summary: Niccolosi’s theory heavily relied on a family triad model: a domineering mother, a passive father, and a sensitive child, which he believed almost certainly produced a gay child without intervention. The therapy involves four steps, including the therapist disclosing their anti-gay philosophical views and educating the client on the supposed negative outcomes of a gay lifestyle.
Damaging Techniques and Outcomes
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(00:44:01)
  • Key Takeaway: Conversion therapy techniques range from psychological degradation, such as forcing self-disparagement in front of a mirror, to aversive conditioning involving nausea-inducing stimuli associated with same-sex attraction.
  • Summary: One documented case involved training a four-year-old’s mother to punish feminine behaviors and reward masculine ones, resulting in the child dying by suicide at age 30. The American Medical Association (AMA) states that these efforts pose critical health risks, including depression, shame, sexual dysfunction, and suicidality.
High-Profile Failures and Movement Collapse
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(00:56:07)
  • Key Takeaway: The credibility of the ex-gay movement was severely damaged when prominent figures touted as success stories, like John Paul of Exodus International and Ted Haggard, were later exposed as gay or bisexual.
  • Summary: John Paul, the poster boy for Exodus International, was photographed in a gay bar two years after promoting conversion therapy, eventually living openly as a gay man. Alan Chambers, who replaced Paul as the head of Exodus International, later came out as gay, apologized to the LGBTQ community, and shut the organization down, stating conversion therapy does not work.
Exodus International Leader’s Shift
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(01:01:08)
  • Key Takeaway: Alan Chambers, successor at Exodus International, publicly renounced conversion therapy after realizing he was gay.
  • Summary: Alan Chambers took over Exodus International from John Polk around 2000 and about a decade later publicly stated he was gay and that conversion therapy does not work. Chambers subsequently shut down Exodus International and apologized to the LGBTQ community for the damage caused by the organization. This event marked a major turning point, as one of the largest conversion therapy organizations admitted failure.
Legislation Against Conversion Therapy
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(01:02:23)
  • Key Takeaway: Laws banning conversion therapy primarily target licensed professionals, often excluding religious counselors.
  • Summary: As of 2019, 18 states and Washington D.C. had enacted bans, usually focused on preventing licensed medical practitioners or counselors from practicing conversion therapy on minors. These bans typically do not apply to preachers, youth counselors, or other non-licensed church therapists, citing religious freedom concerns. Courts have upheld these state laws, often rejecting free speech challenges by arguing that banning the practice is distinct from restricting speech.
Legal Precedents and Fraud Claims
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(01:03:36)
  • Key Takeaway: Practitioners found guilty of conversion therapy fraud can face civil penalties and license revocation, though some continue operating under new names.
  • Summary: The organization Jonah (Jews Offering a New Alternative for Healing) had its practitioners lose their licenses and pay a $3.5 million settlement for fraud after practicing conversion therapy in New Jersey. The principle applied is similar to quack cancer treatments: if a licensed professional causes harm with a scientifically discredited treatment, they are held accountable. New York City repealed a ban covering adults after facing a lawsuit, fearing the Supreme Court might rule all conversion therapy bans unconstitutional.
Media and Grammar Mail
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(01:06:39)
  • Key Takeaway: The film ‘The Miseducation of Cameron Post’ depicts a girl undergoing conversion therapy, and a listener complained about the hosts’ use of ‘a’ versus ‘an’ before ‘historic’.
  • Summary: The film ‘The Miseducation of Cameron Post’ (2018) is based on a novel about a girl forced into conversion therapy. A listener wrote in to correct the host for repeatedly using ‘a historic’ instead of the grammatically correct ‘an historic,’ based on the vowel sound of the following word. The hosts debated prescriptivism versus descriptivism regarding the use of ‘a’ or ‘an’ before words starting with a pronounced ‘h’ sound, like ‘honor’ or ‘historic’.
Podcast Outro and Sponsorships
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(01:10:23)
  • Key Takeaway: Listeners can contact the show via stuffyousshouldknow.com or email, and the episode concludes with several sponsor messages.
  • Summary: Contact information for Stuff You Should Know includes the website stuffyousshouldknow.com and the email stuffpodcast@iHeartRadio.com. The episode features advertisements for Untold Stories (a podcast about severe autoimmune conditions), Public.com (an investing platform), and Brightview Senior Living Communities.